Beyond Organic Wine

Carolina Heritage Vineyards & Winery - Organic Wine From Hybrid Grapes & Muscadines with Paper Bottles

In this episode I interview Wendy McNabb, the current owner with her husband, of Carolina Heritage Vineyards, one of only four certified organic wineries on the entire East Coast of the United States. They use paper bottles, so we talk about the pros and cons of this alternative packaging. And we talk about some of the really interesting wines they make at Carolina Heritage, including dry Muscadines. Now, Muscadines have come up on Beyond Organic Wine before, including last week’s episode, but Wendy and I really dig into them. The oldest vine in north America is a Muscadine, growing in North Carolina (over 400 years old). Muscadines aren’t hybrids. They are a species of grape native to North Carolina and the South-eastern and southern US. Some even argue that they should be classified as a different genus of Vitis, as they are unlike every other Vitis species in that they have 40 chromosomes instead of 38. There are over 150 individual improved cultivars of Muscadines with a variety of colors and flavors much too diverse to generalize about.  Muscadines are resistant to pierce’s disease, downy and powdery mildew, phylloxera, and more.  They are highly prized for these resistances in grape breeding programs despite the difficulty of crossing them with other vitis species due to that chromosomal uniqueness. What I’m trying to say here is that Muscadines are pretty special grapes, not just in the US, but globally. If we Americans were smart, we stop trying to imitate someone else’s culture and start building a viticultural legacy from this truly American native grape that is unlike any other grape on earth, and that can be grown virtually no-spray under some of the most intense fungal pressures and weather extremes on the planet. That is a foundation on which to build a legacy, and I’m really happy to introduce you to Caroline Heritage because they are building their legacy on that foundation. Enjoy!

https://www.carolinaheritagevineyards.com/

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Grapes Have Feelings - Botanist & Barrel, DeFi Wines, Lydon Smith Makes Regional Southern Wine & Cider

I’ve known about Botanist & Barrel and DeFi Wines for a couple years, and even visited them in Asheville, North Carolina. They introduced me to both Muscadine grapes and Paw-paws through their wines. And they have a wine named Grapes Have Feelings, made with apples and muscadine grapes, that is both a delicious wine and one of my favorite names for a wine. I talk to Lyndon Smith, one of the founders and winemakers for Botanist & Barrel and DeFi Wines. We discuss true regionality in wine, the many benefits of co-ferments, whether muscadines express terroir, connecting with deep sense-memories in wine, using wine to stop food waste, trialing new species to both see what works and help plants adjust to climate change, the amazing array of uncommon fruit that Botanist & Barrel uses to make wine, and at the end Lyndon shares about the emotional and physical aftermath of Hurricane Helene and how Asheville is recovering. Welcome to the rainbow of diverse colors and flavors that is possible for Southern Wine and Ciders.

https://www.botanistandbarrel.com/

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Beyond Organic Wine

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The Data Behind Regenerative Viticulture - Tommy Fenster

Tommy Fenster is a scientist who studies agroecological systems, but specifically for the last few years he’s been focused on gathering data from dozens of vineyards around California and studying the practices and impacts of regenerative viticulture. Tommy gathers data across something like 49 vineyards. In a sense, the largest regenerative viticulture trial is the one being conducted across all vineyards in the world right now as more and more farmers embrace more and more regenerative practices we begin to deepen our understand of how the impacts of regenerative farming compare against the impacts of conventional farming… and Tommy is collecting the data to be able to understand this.  

Grazing is a big part of this conversation, and we get into the weeds about how, when, the impacts in different contexts and season, alternatives to sheep and some of the limitations of sheep, as well as some of the creative ways to incorporate sheep and other animals. There’s some really helpful info here that you might not have considered, as well as some important considerations about the potential issues that can arise. We talk a lot about contract grazing and why you shouldn't make assumptions about contract grazing as an easy way to incorporate animals into your winegrowing… you may need to be more creative.

We also dig into tillage and ask some hard questions about where and when and how and if it is ever a good practice. As California attempts to define regenerative agriculture, I think everyone should learn from the system that Tommy and his team uses to parse what it means across an array of best practices and a variety of contexts.

• Link to grazing in vineyards field day

• 2024 Grant Progress Report with research highlights from first two years of data on grazing in vineyards and regenerative management
• Resources from CAFF on integrating regenerative management practices
• Ecdysis 2024 Annual Report. Page 10 has the vineyards highlighted
• Ecdysis website
• Gaudin Lab website
• Tommy's Website

Your support is greatly needed and appreciated:

You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.

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Beyond Organic Wine

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Gideon Beinstock - Clos Saron

Gideon Beinstock started Clos Saron with Saron Rice in 1999 as an attempt to purely and distinctively express the terroir of their home in the Sierra Foothill outside of Oregon House, California. Over the years they've developed and refined both their winegrowing and winemaking with an eye always toward a more pure expression, less about them and any input, and more about finding what the land has to say through grapes. This objective has led them to some fascinating techniques and approaches to making wine, always thoughtful, and always guided by an attempt to meet authentic needs rather than trendy or contrived philosophies. The result is a kind of integrated farming and wine flavors that you don't find in the rest of California. This is a journey out of time into the world of timeless wine.

https://clossaron.com/

Your support is greatly needed and appreciated:

You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.

Or by donating or taking action at:

Beyond Organic Wine

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Growing Wine With Horses, Pine Trees, and Pasta - CA'MUSU

This fun episode is a conversation with Domenico Musumeci, co-owner of Ca’Musu and Wine Pirati, with his wife Elise. They live and farm wine in Michigan, and Mimmo talks us through their unique approach to viticulture… which involves working with a draft horse named Buster. I’m a lover of horses, myself, and worked as a horseback trail guide in Colorado at one time in my life, and had the great fortune of getting to know and have a relationship with a horse named Vinegar. Vinegar was named for her personality, but over the course of getting to know her and paying attention to her needs and wants, and learning about how I needed to change to be a trustworthy partner and leader for Vinegar, I found her to be one of the sweetest beings I’ve ever encountered. Mimmo and I talk about some of these considerations that may not be top of mind when thinking of working with horses, or other animals. They are individuals, just like us. And we also get into some of the really practical and economic calculations to factor into your plan of farming with horses. Like… do you prefer the smell of horse farts or diesel exhaust? And what does it mean to be a good leader? In relation to this, Mimmo observes at one point how much we ask of the land, the animals, and the plants we work with and live from, but how seldom do we ask what we need to give of ourselves in return? Mimmo asks us to consider our viticulture as a multidirectional exchange, rather than a one way sense of expectation and even entitlement. We even talk about a kind of vite maritata, or married vine viticulture they started as a way to work with an ecological legacy they found on part of their land. The way that Mimmo and Elise farm is not common, and it allows us to get some incredible insights from their perspectives on their relationship to their land… we pack a lot into this conversation, but we may need a part 2 because there’s so much more to explore.

https://www.camusu.com/

Your support is greatly needed and appreciated:

You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.

Or by donating or taking action at:

Beyond Organic Wine

or just spread the word... thanks!

The World's Largest Regenerative Organic Viticulture Trial Is Really Hopeful - Caine Thompson, O'Neill Vintners

My guest for this episode is Caine Thompson, head of sustainability for O’Neill Vintners. Caine has initiated and oversees the largest side-by-side trial of regenerative organic viticulture in the world at Robert Hall Winery, one of O’Neill Vintners flagship brands in Paso Robles. Going into it’s 5^th year in 2025, this regenerative organic viticulture trial is already providing data that show that regenerative organic viticulture, in Paso Robles, provides, at minimum, economic & wine quality parity with conventional agriculture while improving soil and vine health, carbon and water storage, and benefitting multiple other elements of the ecosystem and socio-cultural context of the winery. O’Neill has already converted the rest of Robert Hall’s estate vineyards to regenerative organic viticulture after seeing the results from just the first years of the trial.

I often use this podcast to bring attention to smaller producers doing great work who might otherwise not get the same media coverage that large brands get. And I do think that’s important. But an ecological approach to wine is not a niche obsession. It’s what needs to become the dominant culture. So I think it is also important to applaud the genuine commitments to ecological alignment by larger companies. With many other beverage brands under its control, O’Neill is the kind of company that can begin to set a larger trend and cause real change to happen. There is a lot of heart behind this story, thanks to Caine and the others he works with. Prepare yourself to hear something both inspiring and hopeful for a change.

https://oneillwine.com/

Your support is greatly needed and appreciated:

You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.

Or by donating or taking action at:

Beyond Organic Wine

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Free Range Flower Winery - Aaliyah Nitoto

My guest for this episode makes wine from flowers. Her name is Aaliyah Nitoto and her winery is called Free Range Flower Winery. She’s based out of Oakland, California, so she could use grapes. But her first attempts at infiltrating the grape wine hegemony we’re overly welcoming. As she assessed and regrouped, her studies led her to a different calling. Her story is inspiring and her fermentations are both refreshingly novel and at the same time steeped in historical tradition. At every step she has had to confront and overcome the Grape supremacy of the dominant wine culture, and a few other obstacles as well. But she has created a beautiful, and ecological approach to wine, and I’m grateful to get to share her story with you.

https://www.freerangeflowerwinery.com/

Your support is greatly needed and appreciated:

You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.

Or by donating or taking action at:

Beyond Organic Wine

or just spread the word... thanks!

NOK Vino's Nico Kimberly - Hybrid Grapes in New Hampshire

This episode digs into several varieties of hybrid grapes being grown in New Hampshire by the team that makes up NOK Vino. I speak with Nico Kimberly, the founder of NOK Vino, about the challenging viticulture of New Hampshire, what its like to be making wine in a new, young wine region, the importance of community to these efforts, and the diversity of grapes that are making it possible to do what he’s doing. Nico has a refreshingly non-dogmatic perspective, that approaches each site and each vintage as having unique needs that must be carefully observed and thoughtfully and individually managed, and each plant and life in and around his vineyards as individuals to learn from, care for, and live symbiotically with.

https://nokvino.com/

Your support is greatly needed and appreciated:

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Beyond Organic Wine

Honoring Groundbreaking Winemakers

Maybe you took a break from alcohol this January and you don't want to go back to drinking wines made within the dominant paradigm. Maybe you'd like to try something truly extraordinary, rare, unique, ecological, and excellent. If so... this episode offers some suggestions. 

For this episode I assembled a gathering of Los Angeles wine professionals to taste through a handful of wines that represent winemakers who are among some of the most groundbreaking... and the most unacknowledged for the amazing work they do.

Tasters (besides me):

Elodie Oliver- wine educator, sales with Nomadic

Chiara Shannon - regenerative farmer/owner Ampelos Vineyards (Sta. Rita Hills), The Yogi Sommelier

Teron Stevenson - partner at Offhand Wine Bar, one of the Westside Winos

Wines Tasted (in order of tasting):

"Random Apples" by Raging Cider & Mead - found, foraged seedling & uncultivated apples from Southern California

"Sparkling Prickly Pear" by Wild Texas Wine - foraged uncultivated 100% prickly pear brut sparkling wine, traditional method

"Okneski Vineyard" by Herrmann York - backyard vineyard Zinfandel from Redlands, CA (Contributed by Teron Stevenson)

"In A Dark Country Sky" by La Garagista - whole cluster Vermont Marquette

"The Pariah" by North American Press - sparkling Catawba revival, first in California in 60 years

To highlight a few incredible wine producers, I necessarily must leave out others. So, like any spotlight of this kind, please know that my intention was not to be comprehensive. Most of these producers do stand out, though, for doing wine in a way that very few, if any, are doing it, and with exemplary and even uncommon quality and craft. 

Your support is greatly needed and appreciated:

You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.

Or by donating or taking action at:

Beyond Organic Wine

or just spread the word... thanks!

Regenerative Viticulture Foundation - Becky Sykes

Becky Sykes is the Program Director of the Regenerative Viticulture Foundation, and she’s gives us a great introduction to many of the resources and opportunities available to wine producers through their work. Becky tells us about the RVF’s upcoming 1 block challenge, as well as their regenerative Toolkit that you can participate in as a winegrower, and we discuss many of the other resources and ideas that the RVF brings attention to. In short, you’ll hear many reasons why and how you can get involved with the Regenerative Viticulture Foundation and help move viticulture in a regenerative direction.

https://www.regenerativeviticulture.org/

Also, please check out this past episode which discusses and gives resources for regenerative ag data:

https://www.organicwinepodcast.com/episodes-1/ecdysis-regenerative-wine

Here are some fun and informative links about ecoacoustics:

Ecoacoustics: The Ecological Investigation and Interpretation of Environmental Sound

Sounds of the underground reveal soil biodiversity dynamics...

A Fun Video About Soil Ecoacoustics

Your support is greatly needed and appreciated:

You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.

Or by donating or taking action at:

Beyond Organic Wine